Macedonian nationalism. No Balkan nationalists allowed! Please read before commenting.

Lets understand each other, shall we?

Lets understand each other, shall we?

I haven’t written in a while.  I decided to come back and see how this blog is doing.  WordPress has changed some of the software.. the inner workings look different.  Any way, I found this comment on one of my blog posts.  I let it show up because I want people to see an example of someone who did not read my post and posted utter and complete nonsense.  Let me remind you that the idea of that blog post, Macedonia’s name and the issue of cultural heritage, was to claim that really, on the Balkans, we should all get along, because we really are very very similar and can all claim to have been influenced by the great civilizations that have thrived on our small bit of the world.

I’m perfectly willing to listen, if you’re willing to listen to me.

Anyway, I’ve always wanted to tear apart nationalistic crap on my blog, so I’ll give it a go.

Go check igenea or other institutes for genetics
Macedonian DNA exist and its different than the “greek” one or bulgarian…

Since when is DNA a prerequisite to belonging to a certain nation or cultural entity?  Okay I give, my DNA stops me from calling myself Chinese or Korean, sure. (Really though, I’m sure if I wanted to learn their culture and be one of them, they would welcome me with open arms.)  But the differences in DNA of Balkan peoples are extremely small. Insignificant.  We’re all human beings anyway.

Stop calling us bulgars,slavs… fashist politics

Did I call Macedoneans Bulgarians?  No! Good job reading my blog post!

do you know my friend why the language we speak its called ”slavic” or macedonian???
learn some history before you post non-sense.
Have you heard about St. Kiril and Metodij???
that wikipedia stupid greek fashist propaganda can show to somebody else

Several inconsistencies here.  First, if you claim you are different from Slavs (see previous quote bit), then why are you defending your language as being slavic?  And why are you defending Macedonian (the idea) as being Slavic?

Post from iGENEA to 02.10.2008

Oh good! He’s bringing in an intellectual buddy to refute my blog post, which he didn’t read! Note: After reading through the next part, I realized that it had been ‘translated’ from German.  I wonder if the percentages were also translated as liberally as the words were?

A antic (from renovatio:  what does this mean??) macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological funds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece an minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.

So 20% of Greeks do, or rather, 20% of Greek genetic ancestry is, have Macedonian descent?  You’re shooting a hole in your claim that you are the only descendants of Alexander.  Also, these presentations of archaeological DNA don’t impress me much.  How do you know that the person in what is supposed to be a Macedonian’s grave wasn’t an adopted Thracian or Greek?

It is very important to differ between politics and genetics, we are a genetic institute and we don’t have politic aims.

Presenting your evidence as nonpartial when it really is provides a clue as to how verifiable the evidence is. Note: I still don’t think genetic percentages are ‘evidence’ of any sort.  It’s grasping at straws to show how different you are from others.

Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18%Thraker
2% Vikings
20% slavs

Albanians are more slavic than Bulgarians.  They also have no Macedonian genetic influence.  Huh??

Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen

Let’s just say that this is ridiculous.  First off, Greeks are more slavic than Bulgarians.  Secondly, it doesn’t even correspond to the presented Macedonian descent of Greeks given in the first article!

Bulgaria:
49%Thraker
11%macedonian
15%slavs
15%hellenen
5% pheonician

Great!  Who cares in today’s world?

Macedonia:
30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavs

20% Germanic??? Did Germans colonize Macedonia while I wasn’t looking??  Also, according to this, Macedonians are more hunnic than Bulgarians! Why are you calling Bulgarians Tatars??  And why do all of Macedonia’s neighbors except for Serbia have Thracian ancestry, but Macedonia doesn’t?

Bosnia
50% Illyrer
4% Thraker
20% Germanen
6% Hunnen
15% Slawen
15% Kelten

I’m getting tired of this.  German (non)-translation obvious here.  Bosnians are more Albanian than Albanians are?

Serbien:
30% Slawen
9% Phönizier
21% Illyrer
14% Kelten
8% Hellenen
2% wikinger
18% Germanen

I’m tired.  This genetic ancestry crap doesn’t even matter in today’s world.  It only matters where people are more concerned with history than with real life dynamics.

your opinion is a result of the fashist politic of greecce, stop calling us slavs cause the greece is more slavic country than MACEDONIA!

Whew, I got to the end of it.  What I was doing was claiming that the Balkans are cultarally similar.  We all have the tendency to bite each other where it most hurts and to plant our little flag and shout how great we are.  Except that most of us don’t.  Only the vocal ones are heard though.  Most of us, myself included, just want this nonsense nationalism to end, and to move on to a brighter future where we all help each other achieve and prosper.

Long live the men of goodwill who can get past nationalism, pride and past glories!

Lets work together!

Let’s work together!

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About renovatio

I'm a recent college graduate looking forward to realizing my dreams. Hopefully, some of you will share in my successes by reading my blogs!
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7 Responses to Macedonian nationalism. No Balkan nationalists allowed! Please read before commenting.

  1. Hey, you shouldn’t spend too much time on stupid people, they won’t learn anyway…

    • renovatio says:

      I know. But I realize also that I can’t ignore the viewpoints of others, and if I’m going to comment on them, I should probably do it in a way that doesn’t alienate them.

      I mean after all, in order to achieve something, you need others to agree with you, right? So if I want this extreme nationalism to end on the Balkans, then I should at least try to persuade those who perpetuate it that it’s a bad bad ideal.

      Unfortunately, it’s not only stupid people who are nationalists on the Balkans. Educated cosmopolitan citizens of Balkan countries apply this nationalism to other Balkan states but are suddenly free and open minded when talking about say China.

  2. Dardan says:

    Für mich ist die IGENEA alles lüge
    ich habe eine seite gefunden bei demm die haplogruppen auf dem ballkan gezeichnet siend von IGENEA.
    da stand :albanien 30%I2a mit 30%illyrer
    serben 38%I2a mit 38% slaven
    makedonier 35% I2a mit 35% makedonen
    bollgaren 44% I2a mit 44% thraker
    was mich wundert ist das all die lender haben den gleichen gruppe aber jeder ist verschiden
    illyrer thraker makedonen slaven
    was nun ist die haplogruppe ;:;:
    illyrisch oder thrakisch oder makedonisch oder slavisch …. daher alles LÜGE LÜGE LÜGE

  3. Someotherguy says:

    Everyone has a different view, some Macedonians believe that they are the descendants of Alexander and the ancient Macedonians, what really irritates me the most is that they believe that they are 100% Ancient Macedonians, i believe in the process of mixing, the Balkans is a small place with lots of nationalities, its impossible for people not to have mixed especially when they were under Ottoman rule and had no inner borders, my belief is that Macedonians are part Ancient Macedonians, part Slavs and many other nations, but it differs for every individual, for example i may have Serbian ancestors somewhere down my family tree, someone might even have a German or French and so on and so on, this of course does not apply for Macedonians alone, also the iGENEA research cannot be presented as fact it needs to be done a far larger scale to be conclusive.

    “20% Germanic??? Did Germans colonize Macedonia while I wasn’t looking??”

    I believe the 20% Germanic part refers to the Goths who invaded the Balkans.

    Also the Illyrians lived in modern day Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Northern Albania and Kosovo.

    What irritates me a lot is the whole concept of Orthodox Brotherhood, mostly between Greece and Serbia, the fact that annoy’s me is that Orthodox Brotherhood implies that only people of a curtain Religion can be called brothers, it also brings hate , towards other religions, such as nationalism brings hate towards other nations.

    I believe that the nations in the Balkan cling to there past a lot is because of the Balkan inferiority complex, mainly that we are the s**thole of Europe, so we try to connect to our glorious ancestors to not feel puny and worthless, it also brings us down, we should be looking at a better now and tomorrow not how our ancestors conquered some lands thousands of years ago, for me Alexander is to far away in the past to be of any relevance, he was Great but he won’t improve my life today.

  4. Ivana says:

    I realize my response to this blog entry is more than a little late, however I feel it is necessary to post my opinion for the sake of those individuals who stumble across this site as I did. I agree that the comments coming from the Macedonian side were not the most tolerant, intellectual ones, however there is one thing you should keep in mind: The Macedonian dispute is severely complex and many sites online are biased. Often times, Macedonians find themselves victimized by individuals belonging to other groups. Don’t misinterpret my words-I am not saying that Macedonians are the only victims while others are constantly shoving ideologies down their throats. There have been some nasty remarks from the Macedonian side as well, however if you invest some time into looking up the issue online, you will find that the number of derogatory terms being directed towards Macedonians is much greater than the others. Anyways, my main reason for replying this late to the post is the individual who commented above me (Someotherguy). I’m sure that any sane, rational human being will agree that for a country to claim pure homogeneity, especially in a region as small as the Balkans, is crazy and laughable. This is where the name dispute comes in to play. The Greek position maintains that Macedonians are Slavs with absolutely no right to the name “Macedonia”, whereas the Greek people have the full claim to the name as well as the history associated with it. However, if we look back just over 100 years ago, a separate region called Macedonia existed within the Ottoman Empire, separate from Greece, and contained both the modern-day Republic, Greek Macedonia, and some parts within Bulgaria and Albania too. Regardless, my comment is not to address the injustice of the Bucharest Treaty or anything along those lines. My comment is to focus on the fact that just 100 years ago, the descendants of the Republic of Macedonia and the descendants of Greek Macedonia were living within the SAME country, no borders, nothing. Therefore, for the Greek government to claim that the Greek population is the sole carrier of the name Macedonia and that the Macedonians from the Republic are not, is insanity. By arguing this, they are stating that even though just recently all individuals lived united within a single Macedonian country, they did not interact nor mix. Realistically speaking, many kingdoms and empires have thrived within the Balkan regions and borders and populations have altered throughout time. However, when arguing that the modern-day Macedonians have absolutely no claim to the history or name because they are “Slavs”, we have to keep in mind that just because the Slavs migrated (which they also did deep into mainland Greece), it does not mean that they completely wiped out the entire population living there prior to them. Instead, it’s logical to assume that they interacted with the people in the region and absorbed their culture, traditions, and elements of their language while doing so. Even if by some spontaneous reason the Greek position that modern-Macedonians are all Slavs without any Ancient Macedonian ancestry were true, it has to be kept in mind that the Slavic population is not exactly new to the Balkan region. They have lived within these regions longer than the populations of North America have lived in their homelands. By this point it becomes a question of culture, language and heritage. Generations have passed, borders have changed, however somewhere along the line a Macedonian identity has remained. It has its own unique characteristics that separates it from its bordering countries. If Greeks within Northern Greece wish to identify as Macedonians as well, they have the right to. Every human possesses the right to self-identification. At the end of the day, their traditions and cultural ties reflect Greek views. This entire name dispute targets more than just the name of the country. It targets the Macedonian ethnic group that exists non-related to Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia or Albania. It is frustrating to see many people supporting the Greek position, accepting that Greece is entirely homogenous, while Macedonians are not. As I have said before, borders have changed throughout time, and as they did so did populations. I’m sure every single Balkan soul has ancestry from all of the Balkan regions because of its tiny size and location. It’s time all European nationalists grow up and realize that they are not as glorious as they like to believe. I am Macedonian through my father, however I’m not insane to believe that I am a direct descendant of Alexander’s times. I feel that yes, I do have some connection to Ancient Macedonia and somewhere within my blood there are connections to those distant times. However, I also acknowledge that I have Slavic in me as well. Europeans need to stop acting so butt hurt all the time. Macedonia deserves to have its name recognized because it is the only identity of its people, regardless of where their DNA lies. The people within the country and its minority groups within its neighbouring countries deserve the right to self-identification and to express their identity without being bullied and dealt with as inferiors. I love how you expressed your wishes for the nationalism to end and for everyone to focus on the present moment which will establish our futures. I could not agree more. We need to stop looking back 2000-5000 years ago and acknowledge the cultures we have today. The Balkan region is filled with so much diversity-culturally, linguistically, geographically and religiously. It is a shame to see such an historical, beautiful place torn apart by narrow-minded individuals (cough cough politicians) and radical ideologies. We need to work together.

  5. Ivana says:

    Also to add on to the Orthodox Brotherhood-nothing irritates me more as well. I agree that religion should not be a defining factor towards who can be called a “brother” and who cannot. However, notice how the whole concept of Orthodox Brotherhood is that both Serbs and Greeks are Orthodox, however Macedonians (along with other European nations) are as well. I find it extremely ironic how they continue to promote this idea of unity through religion yet Greece is very anti-Macedonian and Serbia does not acknowledge the Macedonian Orthodox Church. It goes to show that money, power and politics come first even in the religious person’s mind.

    • renovatio says:

      I’m just going to reply here for both of your comments. First of all, wow! I didn’t realize this blog post still showed up in search engines or other sites. A little disclaimer: I wrote this way back while I was in college. Rereading it, I somewhat regret sounding so antagonistic. On the other hand, it was fun to dissect and refute the bad arguments.

      Ivana, thank you for posting. Your post, though long, was well written and makes lots of insightful points. You are correct, that there is a much greater amount of hate toward Macedonians, than the other nations in the Balkans. This is why, looking back, I am a little ashamed about the tone of this post; because it almost seems like I am adding to that hate. My point of view at the time was to dissuade people from using pseudo-scientific ‘proof’ to show that they deserve a bit of history more than someone else.

      In any case, it seems to me, that people in the Balkans have the remarkable ability to strongly associate with the groups that they feel like they belong with. Maybe because the knowledge of their unique identity was all that they had during Ottoman times, the only thing that made them ‘special’. So, in a sense, those same characteristics that helped Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbians, Romanians, etc, get through the Ottoman period with their identities intact are the ones that are precluding us from working together.

      Honestly, if you want, I can post your comment as a new post on the blog so it can get a bit more recognition. (Or maybe you can create a profile on this blog and post it yourself. I haven’t done that with others before, so I’m not sure how it works.)

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